ME squats,7-21-03

[jack]

Pam,,Chris,Fish do any of you know if a regular 4" camber has any value for max effort squats. I don't have or have access to a cambered squat bar and have been using the 4" bar. This bar seems harder than straight bar squats but it could be my imagination. Anybody got any thoughts?

Cambered bar squats( 12.75" box,suit w/straps down,belt,wraps@365)--warmup sets,1x3x195,235,285; 1x1x305,335,365*,385,400***( yeah I know I'm a wuss for not going to failure but I was wiped after the last rep and didn't want to suffer the embarrassment of not getting off the box ) ;

GHR--3x15xBW;

Rev. hypers--1x10x100,110,110;

Kneeling ab pulldowns--1x8x80,90,100,100; 1x1x110(couldn't get that second one), 1x8x100;

Seated ab pulldowns--1x8x40,50,60,70,70;

Standing BB curls--3x8x95;

Tri pushdowns(minibands)--3x30.

The cambered bar squat looks huge but the last time I did these I didn't fight the weight and just let it shut me down. I should have done more the last time. I got my game face on and got down and dirty this evening.

[Pam]

Looks like Dave already answered your cambered bar question. I know you say otherwise, and I've never done them before but it still seems as if the lower the weight the easier it would be. I know you're probably right...notice I said probably It just seems to me that having the weight out in front of you would cause your quads to come into the picture more...I dont know. Now you have me really wanting to try that.

Part of me feels like I dont have a right to give you sh*t about not taking the squats to failure since I didnt take my GM's to failure, but I think I may have had a better excuse than you. So you were wiped out after that last rep? Thats what rest periods are for...to get your strength back and you mind right and your game face on so you can get back under that bar again and give it all you have. Dont get me wrong, 400 is fantastic, but 405 would have been better. And I would put my money on the fact that you had 5 more lbs left in you.

That said great workout. I'm impressed. You've got some nice numbers there kid.

Yell at me the next time we talk if I havent order the briefs yet.

Now I'm going to send his before I feel to guilty too.

[jack]

No excuses but next time it will be 410 . Get those briefs girl,you won't regret it.

[Pam]

Well heck, as long as we're bidding...do I hear 415?

[Fish]

Jack,

I am no expert, and the weights I am using don't take me to the place you are talking about, but I have done a lot of reading and, if I remember correctly, the "experts" say that the cambered bar serves at least these purposes:

increased stability and thus control. because the bar sits lower, the hand and elbow position is changed, making it easier to keep the bar stable and therefore less likely to displace from its original position. Also, a simple lowering of the center of gravity will increase stability.

increased muscle focus. Again, because the bar sits lower the hand and arm placement is lower. The involvment of the shoulder muscles and upper back is supposedly reduced, placing greater focus on the hamstrings and glutes. (One guy says the erectors too, but I just don't see how that can be.)

The question that occurs to me is whether the angle of the forces is actually changed. If the weight is lowered, is the center of gravity lowered as well ? Even if the place on your body where the weight is borne remains essentially the same, and the angle of your back remains the same ?

I guess the other issue is that you have a 4" camber. Westside, as you know, talks about a 14" inch camber.

So maybe you have enough camber to make a change, but not enough to give the benefits the experts talk about ?

From your posts there is no question about your raw strength. Is it possible that it is a neuro adaptation issue ?

Keep the faith.

Fish

[Pam]

Fish, Jack, does the bar actually sit lower on your back? I was under the impression that the bar still sat on your back in the same place as the straight bar.

I'd really like to try those and see what kind of difference it makes.

Jack did you see Dave's response to you on the EF board?

Fish I'd like to respond more to your post but I think I would sound like a complete idiot, or prove that I am.

[Pam]

One quick comment. Let me say first of all that I've never used a cambered bar. That said fish you said "...the hand and elbow position is changed, making it easier to keep the bar stable and therefore less likely to displace from its original position..." I would think just the opposite would be true. That it would actually be harder to keep the bar in place with the lower hand placement.

Would a cambered bar put more stress on your shoulders?

[Fish]

Pam,

I believe you are correct, the bar sits in the same place across the shoulders, but then bends down, so the weights are actually on a lower plane than if using the straight bar.

Second, if I remember correctly, one of the major benefits claimed for the 14" cambered bar is a great reduction in the stress on the elbows and shoulder.

Third, I have never used one, either, so I have no real idea what they are talking about. I do squat with a straight bar, however, and sitting here, if I lower my arms from the holding position for my bar things do seem to ease up.

Fourth, the heavys all call for the cambered bar. Expert opinions, don't you know.

Fifth, I think we should try not to refer to ourseves in pejorative terms. I don't know about you, but I find that there are more than enough people out there who are willing to do that for me. And I thought we were here to talk about stuff we're not sure about. Your questions and observations serve to help me test my own thoughts. Fire away.

Peace,

Fish

[jack]

Fish,I've noticed no difference in bar stability,straight vs. 4" cambered and my upper back is sore after doing these and not from the weight of the bar.

Actually the weight is forced more forward with the cambered bar and this does work the erectors. The bar placement,back angle is the same but due to gravity the weight is a couple inches forward of a straight bar squat. This is what makes this different. Whether a 4" camber is enough of a difference remains to be seen. It's a lot harder than a straight bar squat and hopefully it's enough of a variation to be a good max effort squat exercise.

Pam,the bar rests the same on your shoulders as a straight bar and I find the straight bar easier to control,but that just may be me. I don't see any difference in shoulder stress between the two. This is an interesting debate. I'd like to try a real squat cambered bar and just see what the difference really is. Let's see what I can do with the straight bar next time.

[Pam]

Jack I know you said your quads werent recruited anymore doing them with the cambered bar as opposed to the straight bar but I just dont see how they couldnt be. Then again when I was doing free squats as a warmup for box squats my quads were sore as heck for almost a week. I know that obviously means that my form is really bad.

Can I assume that the bar that the WS guys use is pretty expensive?

[jack]

Pam,you could probably find a cambered squat bar for around $150-200 and a safety squat bar lists for $399,not inexpensive items.

Your quads are recruited more in the cambered style than with the straight bar because the weight is more forward. If your quads were sore after that episode of box squats it's probably due to your knees being forward of your heels,thus resulting in requiring the quads to do more work and the hams less.

[Fish]

Jack,

Here’s what I don’t understand.

Draw a ten inch perpendicular line.

Using the same point at the base, draw another ten inch line 45 degrees to perpendicular.

Draw circles at the far end of each line.

Draw circles two inches down each line.

The lines represent your back.

The base is the earth, since gravity pulls the weight straight down.

The circles represent the weight plates.

Measuring with either arcs or straight lines. the distance between the circles at 10 inches is greater than that between the circles at 8 inches.

Even if the cambered bar is allowed to swing down as you bend, the weight still moves a shorter distance from perpendicular at the 8 inch distance.

If I am correct, this should have two effects.

First, the lever is effectively shortened and there should be less force along that line (your back).

Second, moving a weight a shorter distance requires less force overall.

Finally, on the stability issue, the image came to me of wire walkers with the stability poles or those little toys that run back and forth on strings. You know, the ones on wheels with the weights on wires extending out on each side.
I always thought that lowering the balance weights is what enhances stability by lowering the center of gravity. With the toy it is obvious. Unless those little weights are below the string, the thing falls.

I wonder if the effect is the same with the more cambered bar ?

Am I wrong on this ?

Any physics people out there ?

Pax,

Fish

[jack]

Fish,I'm not exactly sure I got your point but here's the simplistic answer on the cambered bar squats and it involves the lever effect and mechanical advantage......your back is the lever and with the cambered bar the lever is shortened in relation to the position of the weights and as you know the shorter the lever the less efficient it is and your leverage for the lift ( mechanical advntage ) is reduced . Not only does gravity tend to push the weights more forward on the eccentric but your arm position puts the weight forward too. The more forward the weight on a squat the harder the lift. The shorter the lever the harder the lift. Although the weight is moving a somewhat shorter distance it takes the same amount of force to get the weight moving and with less mechanical advantage this may even equate to more force over the length of the lift.

Stability on either of the lifts is not an issue with me. As long as your feet are at a minimum wider than your shoulders this base should make an issue of stability neglible. An extremely wide stance makes stability a moot point. It just comes down to pushing the weight .