aerobics = catabolic ?

[Fish]

I'm guessing that somewhere in the past others on this board (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) have discussed aerobic exercise and the potential catabolic effect. But if that discussion took place, I wasn't here for it. So please bear with me as I go there again.

I believe that the anabolic / catabolic swing is always in effect, but that aerobics only take it too far to the catabolic side if the aerobics are taken too far themselves. Unless you are training for a marathon, I don't think you are going to loose much muscle due to aerobics.

Whaddayall have for me on that ?

Pax,

Fish

[Pam]

Fish, from what I understand any cardio you do will be catabolic. The trick is to minimize that and find that threshold that works for you. I think for most that's probably around 30-40 minutes of aerobics most days if you are trying to lose fat, and 3-4 days a week if you are trying to maintain. I don't think the normal person just trying to get in and/or stay in shape so they can "do stuff" has much to worry about. As long as you aren't training for a marathon and stick to a balance program I don't think you will notice any or much muscle loss.

Some suggest that aerobic training be added to an anaerobic (weight lifting) program to help enhance recovery capabilities because recovery relies primarily on aerobic mechanisms. Aerobic training may however reduce anaerobic performance, though the opposite does not seem to be true. Some studies suggest that anaerobic training can improve low intensity exercise endurance.

Well, there's my 2 cents. Jack will probably have more to add. If Chris is still around he may be able to give you a better answer.

By the way, back on the other board Cora asked us what got us started in this lifestyle, why we started working out, etc. I'm curious what got you started Fish or if you've always been physically active.

For me, I started working out about 5 years ago. My mom had been lifting weights so I decided to give it a try. I lost about 120 lbs in the first year and a half. I always say that lifting not only made me stronger physically but also mentally. It was after I started lifting that I decided I didnt need to put up with what I was in my marriage. Though I've been going through what I consider a major set back the last year and a half I'm still chugging along. I've gained some weight back but not due to lack of exercise or a clean diet. Good news is I've learned a lot along the way and I think it will make me a better trainer, and finally got the doctors to run some tests. Hopefully I'll have some good news there soon.

Jack turned me on to powerlifting about a year ago and the rest is history. I am totally addicted to lifting heavy. My hopes are to get certified as a CFT through the ISSA by the end of this coming school year and then study for and take the NSCA test.

So, whats your story?

Have a great day!

[jack]

Pam,that was quite a reply. You shouldn't have trouble getting your certification.

Your trying to show me up on the anabolic side of the equation,knowing that I'm about 3 minutes tops on the Walkfit. I've accepted the fact of your answer but have never completely understood the why of this condition. Sometimes it's best I don't think to much and just try and lift the damn bar .

[Pam]

I'm not understanding what you're having a hard time understanding. Is it how aerobic training can help enhance recovery? If so I dont believe they are talking about muscle recovery but more....dang I just lost my train of thought!!!! I've been doing this all day!! You know I had a perfectly good answer and I'll be darned if I know where I was going with it now.

Tell me what it is you dont understand and I'll get my thoughts back together for you.

Let me try again first, I actually think the fact that you dont do a lot of cardio is a benefit for you. You seem to be able to maintain your weight with what you are doing...dont ask me how I feel about that and I though I dont think more cardio would hurt you (hint hint) I think too much would have a negative affect on your lifting. I do however believe in training all your muscles and I think the best way to train your heart is through aerobics. I think that if you added more cardio that you would recover faster from your workouts because your heart could handle more of a load. Did that make any sense at all??

That is just my personal opinion...and yes I know what they say about opinions.

Ok I'm going to be done here now.

[fish]

Pam,

First, have the leeches tested your thyroid levels ?

Second, I think your choice of ISSA is a good one. I've checked into some of the other sites, and passed their tests which only goes to show that the standards are too low.

Third, I agree with your catabolic / anabolic analysis.

Fourth, I can't imagine what it would be like to be 280 and strong. Different rules in different worlds ? Right on, Jack.

Fifth, I believe that in a former life, while wandering through the sacred grove of the goddess, I peed on a sacred tree. Thus my history with women until Nancy. So don't dispair. He's out there. He's just paying his dues until he meets you.

As for me, I am one of the blessed. I was 70 lbs at 7 yrs and then gained 10 lbs per year until 170 at 17. 175 then to now (55)

School was baseball, football, track, basketball, swimming, even boxed in college. (won, too)

I was competitive but not elete.

After school = running; bikes, xcountry and road; rock climbing; body powered water sports (scuba is wonderful); etc.

Oh yeah, aerobic training is for cardio fitness. The fitness of the heart is another matter and the training is different and much more difficult.

Peace,

Fish

[Pam]

Fish, you said, "Oh yeah, aerobic training is for cardio fitness. The fitness of the heart is another matter and the training is different and much more difficult." When we talk about cardiovascular fitness doesn't that include fitness of the heart? Aerobic exercise increases maximal cardiac output which results in improved stroke volume (quantity of blood ejected with each beat). Another characteristic is a much lower heart rate after aerobic exercise. I also believe that with ongoing aerobic training the size of the left ventricle, both volume and wall thickness, are increased as are the strength of the contractions. Wouldn't that be considered heart fitness? I have something about this in one of my books but I cant find the page right now. I'm just going off my very sloppy notes.

I'm curious to read your thoughts on this.

So you've been the same weight since you were a teenager? I think I hate you. I have had my thyroid levels checked and since they changed the range of what is normal I am now on the high end of normal, but for some reason my doctor doesn't seem to see that. They are running a bunch of tests, results of which I hope to have back this week, and one was my thyroid again. I am hoping its my thyroid that is the problem. I would prefer for nothing to be wrong but the fact of the matter is something isn't right. One does not exercise as much as I do and eat the way I do and gain weight. I have totally lost faith in doctors throughout this entire process. Pretty soon I will be able to put PhD at the end of my name.

By the way, which certifications do you have?

[Fish]

Pam,

Sorry, I misexpresented myself. I agree with what you say about cardio fitness. I was speaking about affairs of the heart.

I agree with your observations about exercise induced positive effects on the heart. I am so old that I can remember when there was a real controversy concerning whether too much running would result in an "oversized heart" (ventricular hypertrophy or hypertrophic cardiomyopathy).

Are you familiar with www.weightsnet.com ?

I ask this because for 10 years or so that site had the most informed exchanges between the fizfit gurus. Intermixed with the usual stuff found on these sites were the battles between +Mel Siff+ and just about everybody else. It's still there. I believe it is worth anyone's time to go through the entire ten years.

I mention this because I have no certifications. And the reason is because I have not done the real work. I could easily get a matchbook certification. They publish their tests on the net and I can pass them. But even though I might be able to fool folks, I would still know that I didn't know enough to have my own respect. What I really don't know is detailed bio mechanics and bio chemistry. Sure, it's bi articulate with active insufficiency, I know all that, but where exactly are the attachment points ? (usually variable, but ... ) and what in a particular instance are the effects of combined variations in those points ? Is it enough to have the wood matchstick understanding of muscle metabolism ?

Nah.

I think medical professionals are no more or less than mechanics working on a machine they don't understand. That you are on your way to the Ph.D is good since I take it to mean that you are trying to do your own research and ask your informed questions. 'Nuff said that one of Nancy's doctors actually apologized to me at the same time that she admitted that she should have ordered the MRI we said was indicated by the symptoms. And the doctor knows that I'm a lawyer.

On the weight gain thing, I am convinced that if the thyroid is within normal limits, then not enough is made of the body's inclination to maintain or resume what it "thinks" is the true status quo. I think that one has to stay at a given weight for a looooong time before the body accepts that weight as normal and doesn't try to get back to the old "normal" weight.

But who am I ?

Keep the faith,

Fish

[Pam]

I apologize for misinterpreting your "fitness of the heart" comment. Sometimes I have a one track mind.

I know of weightsnet but have never had time to sit and really read through everything. With 3 kids and 2 dogs I don't have much time to do much of anything that doesn't involve kids...or dogs.

You sound an awful lot like me in your desire to know more than just what the book requires you to know. When I am learning about something I like to know everything there is to know about it and be able to talk about and explain it in my words. As far as kinesiology & biomechanics are concerned I think it is important to have a working knowledge of those if you are going to be an effective trainer. How far you need to go with it though depends upon your goals and what exactly you wish to do. I find it fascinating but also find myself reading the same paragraph over and over and still not understanding it. I understand the individual words, know what each means, but throw them all together and I am lost. . As for active and passive insufficiency, I could give you a text book definition of each but I am still in the process of really understanding what each means.

I think your theory on weight gain in interesting. I'm not sure why I've gained weight back, it certainly isn't a question of calories in vs calories out and if one more person tells me that I am going to scream. Though I am learning a tremendous amount in researching this I really just want to get back to where I was so I can get on with what I want to do. I wont go back to school at this weight, not for what I want to get into.

You wouldnt happen to be a divorce lawyer would you?

Have a great day fish.

[fish]

Pam.

Two quick points.

First, Richard Simmons has made a fortune seeming to be fat and fit. He even wears clothing which makes him appear heavier than he is. I think that clients would appreciate the understanding of one who has undergone, and continues to undergo, their struggle. Of course, it helps to have slain their dragons, too. But dragons can be redefined.

Is it really reasonable to expect a woman who has borne childen not to carry more body fat than she did before pregnancy ?


Second, yes, I would happen to be.

Fish

[Pam]

I am counting on "been there done that factor" helping me out when I start training, but that doesnt change the fact that I want to be down to my normal weight. I do think it is reasonable to think that after 3 kids I am "entitled" to carry about a bit more weight, but I dont want to carry around this much more. The fact remains, with the exercise I do and the diet I follow, I just shouldnt be gaining. Something isnt right and I am determined to find out what it is.

Are you taking on new clients?

[fish]

I know much more about the second subject than the first.

Having done hundereds of these, I usually know the questions I'm going to hear. But I'm not licensed to practice in Minnesota . Laws are different from state to state. That being said, there are general rules that apply just about universally.

What do you need to know ?

But is this the place to find it out ? Although as moderator, you can delete the messages as soon as they come in.

In the meantime, there is a skinny little book called "Getting to Yes" and its companion called "Getting Past No" These are guides to negotiation. Thet were written by a couple of Harvard guys and are used at every level, including internationally. They are in plain language, though, and can be understood by any High School Grad.

These books are available everywhere and are invaluable in difficult negotiations. And if you can negotiate directly between the parties successfully, you can save a lot of heartache and money.

(I'll bet that you have much too much of one and nowhere near enough of the other)

I suggest you read them, and if you like them, give copies to the other side. These provide guidelines for productive resolution of difficult differences.

fish, esq.

[Pam]

Thanks fish. The question was partially meant as a joke. I would never discuss those matters in a public forum. I'll check out the books though. As far as giving copies to the other side, that would just be an exercise in futility. Its going to be a long hard battle, but I'm up for the fight.