perhaps I have a problem

[RyanA]

So, I spent an hour or so today reading some articles on elitefts and I went to the gym to cardio and a new determination to make the reverse hypers and GHR machine work because I want the same gains as the rest of westside lifters; unfortunately, I think I am just too weak. I played around with all the adjustments on the machine and I got to wear I felt in a comfortable position BUT I just couldnt do a GHR. I could do the reverse hypers with no weight(kinda awkward but better than nothing) but could not get past about 20 degrees from horizontal on the GHR. I got a big ache in my hamstrings and they just pooped out.

Where do I go from here? i think were I stronger, I could do them on this machine, but I cant do them yet(yet I will do them soon), so I need something to build them up.

~Ryan

[jack]

Don't worry....I could barely get 6 reps on the GHR when I first started. Start doing partials and work your way down to parallel. In a couple of weeks you'll see a real difference in your ham strength and be ripping out 3x10's x BW.......then you can start on adding extra resistance. It just takes a little time but bear with it.....it will come.

[RyanA]

so you think I should start at the top?

I was starting at the bottom and going up.

I will try that today and see how it goes, my knee is flaring up a bit so I need to take it ez on leg days, therefore I am not going to squat but just do ham and lower back stuff.

Thanks,
Ryan

[Pam]

I'm with Jack Ryan, I still only get 5 good reps out. My son cant do them either. What I do with him is have him start parallel with the floor (which is the way you're suppposed to start) and he goes up as far as he can unassisted...which isnt much...then I help him up the rest of the way by pushing up on his shoulders. If you have a partner maybe you could try it that way.

Part of the problem could be the equipment you're using..always love to blame the machine. But really if the foot plate isnt big enough you wont be able to really dig your feet into it. The pad can make a difference too. I've only used the one I have, which I bought off the EF site. I was going to buy a cheaper one but thankful I didnt. I can see how it can make a big different not having a foot plate or pad large enough.

Are you actually using a GHR machine or is it a Roman Chair....think thats what they are called?

[RyanA]

The machine says GHR/ Reverse Hyper... it is not the best as the pad is too small and rotates.

When I start at the top, I can go about 15 degrees from vertical before I feel like im going to fall over uncontrolably. I can lower myself if i bend at the waist, then I can lower myself somewhat under control but the feeling doesnt seem like it works it the same.

I will try to get someone to the gym to help with these. Obviously you all think they are worth the trouble.

I can tell my hamstrings are a weakness now because I box squatted heavy today and I cant lower the weight under control. Basically I can do concentrics with more than I can do eccentrics. I got about 4-5 inches above the box and just dropped with 300lb. I am still using a standard bench as my box. I had no trouble getting off the box though with 300lb. Something feels kinda strained/stretched on the inside of my right quad. Whatever the really long muscle is called, or perhaps my groin that is down by my inner quad muscle. I think it gets strained doing the hamstring stuff because it tries to compensate.

~Ryan

[jack]

You need a suit or a pair of grooved briefs to protect the groin muscles .

If you don't have a partner to assist you with forced reps as Pam described,try starting at the top an going down about 45-60 deg.....work this position until you get enough strength to go parallel.

If you drop the last 4-5 inches it's a ham and a glute weakness. Work to bring these weak points up. I'd highly recommend using knee wraps on max effort days,not only will these help you control the weight going down,they will help protect knees. You don't need them on DE days but if you want to squat heavy for a long time,wrap "em" up. Also,as soon you can you need to start using a lower box on DE days. One other note,make sure you are spreading the floor with your feet(knees stay out)......this will give you more leverage on the concentric. If your knees have a tendency to drift in on the concentric,you'll need to work the hips and glutes to strengthen these muscles.

[RyanA]

I was wearing spandex I think that is enough. My track coach at the UC squatting 1000 lbs. raw so I think that is very doable. Besides briefs wouldnt cover where it is hurting, it is hurting about 3 inches above m knee joint on my inner quad.

So today I did try starting at the top and I went down about 20 degrees from the top. Can not get anywhere near 45. I am going ot keep trying. My hamstrings feel weak right above me knee when doing the GHR. Not in the glute area at all.


THese squats were all high bar so I do not think leverage was the issue. My back was almost vertical the entire time.

[fish]

Ryan,

For heaven's sake, and for your own, don't take an injury !

It is trite to observe that a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. You are now doing exercises which isolate those links.

But when you find the weak link, is it not true that you must strengthen it using the same principles as for the reat of the chain ?

Progressive resistance. Little by little.

I suggest that partial negatives are the way to start, the same partial negatives that are good for pull ups. Lower yourself down if you can't raise yourself up.

But if you are serious, you should be able to write down a plan to increase strength with minimal risk of injury.

Keep the faith,

fish

[RyanA]

I am doing partial negatives but I think I might just do some extra workouts of them because I need to get them strong so I can continue with the rest of my lifting plan.

I dont think I am taking an injury by not wearing gear.

I dont think im doing weight that is beyond the natural capacity of the body. I just need to train harder to be able to withstand the stress. I mean, I could just get a forklift and have that lift for me but that isnt really the point.

~Ryan

[fish]

Ryan,

No, no, I don't mean to suggest some of that stuff.

I have no "gear" beyond a couple of lifting straps. I simply am not at the level where prophylactic devices are even an issue.

What is one to do when one reaches the point that the knees simply must be wrapped if any more weight is to be added to the max lift ? I will never reach that point, but it sounds like you well may at your age with continued enthusiasm for the sport.

And I find that I have a situation that may be similar to yours in that I can dead lift over a hundred pounds more than I can squat. (Both weights not being very heavy)

I think this is because I do full squats and the crux of the move involves muscles that are not involved in my dead lift.

So, if I want to get the squat to the deadlift as quickly as possible, I believe that I have to isolate the muscles involved in the crux of the lift, ie those that get me from below parallel to above parallel, and work them using the same principles I would use for any other muscle. ie small incremental increases with adequate recovery time.

For me the risk would be that I would be impatient to get those weaker links up faster than was prudent, and thereby take an injury.

May be we are saying the same thing ?

fish

[RyanA]

I agree that at some point gear may be the best decision to keep it safe. I would most likely wrap my knees and wear a belt if I ever got to squatting near 500 lbs. I am not sure I would ever wear a squat suit although I dont know because I am not there yet. I am not against gear outright, just I feel like in my position and presumably yours as well, gear doesnt do that much.

Full squatting is definately different than power squatting. In the brief part of my life when I did college track as a javelin thrower we did power squats and I did 5x345. Now, I can not fulls quat 315 for a single rep so this is a very large difference. My power squat may very well be near my deadlift but I just do not do it so I dont know for sure.

I am not sure I think isolating the muscles is a good idea but maybe I misunderstand you. I think the best way would be to continue doing everything that uses those muscles and do ADDITIONAL stuff to bring them up more quickly than the natural gain they would get from doing the main lifts. For me, I need to do hamstring work.

For me the risk is that I become impatient as well. I will keep your advice in mind and try not to do this. I am trying to throw in some extra workouts for the hamstrings, mostly where I just go in there and do GHR as best I can until I cant do them anymore.

I am having trouble doing the partial reps because I cant or my body doesnt want to keep a straight back while I lower myself. I get to a point where it starts to get straining and I bend at the hip which totally takes the stress off the hamstrings.

We might be saying the same stuff.

Thanks again!